Episode 111. Coaching for Creatives with Visionary Coach Marc Scheff ECPC, ACC, PCC
Alicja Matusiak sits down with visionary coach Marc Scheff ECPC, ACC, PCC, who specializes in guiding creative professionals through profound inner journeys. Marc shares his unique approach to overcoming life's obstacles by adopting a creative mindset, emphasizing the importance of being willing to fail and change perceptions. The conversation covers Marc's diverse background, from computer science to art, and touches upon the significance of finding a sense of belonging and authentic self-expression. Join us for a deep dive into the transformative power of creativity and coaching!
FIND MARC SCHEFF ECPC, ACC, PCC
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
02:03 The Role of a Creative Coach
03:02 Marc's Journey: From Tech to Art
03:54 Creative Problem Solving in Business
05:51 The Naked Truth Podcast: Origins and Humor
09:16 Designing Your Life: Gravity vs. Anchor Problems
13:45 Authenticity in Coaching and Life
21:06 Creative Processes in Team Dynamics
21:52 Coaching vs. Consulting: Understanding the Difference
22:19 Real-Life Coaching Success Stories
23:25 The Unique Nature of Coaching Results
24:30 Initial Steps in the Coaching Journey
26:05 The Impact of Coaching on Mental Health
26:36 Personal Journey: From Crisis to Creativity
29:01 The Role of Vulnerability in Personal Growth
33:33 Creating Safe Spaces for Creativity
34:25 The Naked Truth: Personal Reflections
41:47 Finding a Sense of Belonging
45:09 Conclusion and Contact Information
TRANSCRIPTION OF EPISODE 111 OF NAKED TRUTH: A THERAPY PODCAST
Coaching for Creatives with Visionary Coach Marc Scheff ECPC, ACC, PCC
Nobody starts to do something for the first time and looks good doing it. You have to go out there and you have to learn how to do it. Of course, it's about being willing to fail. It's also about changing your mindset on kind of what the whole point is. I'm not going to sit there and tell anybody how to do their job, but I can help them create this mindset so that whatever obstacle they're facing, they have the tools to find solutions that actually make sense for them.
I mean, you must use, I mean, you, you created this podcast. What got you to do that?
Sexual frustration.
Okay, well that's not on my bingo card.
There's two kinds of problems. One is a gravity problem and the other is called an anchor problem. They're similar and that's why they get confused.
So it's not gravity.
Gravity you can't change. An anchor you've dropped yourself. And, and like, there's a whole ocean you can swim around in, but you're like, no, I'm, I'm figuring it out here.
Even though you might be in the middle of a storm and it's just not the right place.
So you have to move to change perception.
Exactly. Okay. I think people are afraid of like, if I look too deeply, there'll be a change that I kind of can't unsee and I'll either have to do the work or be unhappy. And both of those things sound hard.
What I would say in response to that is you might. And the good news is there are ways of approaching difficult change or, you know, big work ahead that actually makes it enjoyable and fun to be in the process. Like that's, I love that.
That's perfect.
Yeah. Like, that's what I want. To make a difference.
Welcome to the Naked Truth Podcast, Mark. For our listeners, Mark Schaaf is a visionary coach dedicated to guiding creative professionals on a profound inner journey. He helps individuals break through barriers and transcend self limiting beliefs to unlock the full spectrum of their capabilities. Hi, Mark.
Thanks for having me, Alicia. It's great to be here.
So tell us what a creative coach is and how you got to be a creative coach.
I would say fundamentally, when I say I'm a creative coach, it's not just for creatives. I do get a lot of creatives because they see my art background and go, I think this guy might understand my life, which is, you know, a lot of times true, but it's about approaching life's obstacles, life's problems, or just things that you want to change from a creative coach.
I would say the creative perspective is most closely related with what I think a lot of people now know, you know, about the growth mindset, Carol Dweck's work, the growth mindset versus the fixed mindset. The idea that if you don't know something, if you're not an expert at something, it's okay. It's okay to actually get better at that thing.
I like to say that nobody starts to do something for the first time and looks good doing it. You have to go out there and you have to learn how to do it. You know, you could look at my background and say, well, you were an artist for many years. That's. But the truth is I've approached almost everything in my career from a creative perspective.
My first degree was in computer science and I became a software engineer. One of the early tech booms in, you know, 1999. I quickly realized what I really loved about The process of building websites, which was kind of like a new thing at the time, like really interactive commercial websites was the creative process.
There were so many different ways that you could do things and there were kind of a lot of right answers. So you had to sort of figure out what was the best way for us to create this, what made sense for the business, what made sense for the client. I did go back to art school. I did spend many years as an artist, as an art instructor.
I started a business helping artists grow their business. I started a gallery, which we're actually Actually in our 10th year right now, which is really exciting. So I still do that. I'm grateful for this approach when it comes to lots of different areas of my life, not just my art, my business. There's lots of things that you go out there and you try and it doesn't work.
I talk to a lot of people in my groups and even my clients about social media. And the truth is you've got to approach these things with a creative mindset. And part of that is not just. coming up with creative solutions and asking, well, okay, what do I need to learn? How could I start this project? Of course, it's about being willing to fail.
It's also about changing your mindset on kind of what the whole point is. I work with a lot of different people who are in my mind very creative, but you know, I'm not an expert in what they do. Like, uh, you know, a guy who, you know, built and sold to advertising companies or, you know, a healthcare exec or somebody who advises the, the president.
Like I'm not going to sit there and tell anybody how to do their job, but I can help them create this mindset so that whatever obstacle they're facing, they have the tools to find solutions that actually make sense for them. Wow. That was a bit of a long answer.
So how do you help people be creative then?
Do you do it through conversations? Do you help them channel their inner guardian angel or something? Like, what do you do?
I like to say that I'm a little bit woo woo. I'm sort of a spiritual skeptic. I do think that a lot of those things work that, you know, uh, law of attraction, law of intention. And I think these things are important to keep in mind and they essentially help you.
With the mindset part of things and, and sort of enjoying the process. Do I think that we get to sort of tell the universe what we want and the universe actually cares about what we want? I don't think it works exactly like that. Sorry. Sorry. You just
told me Santa doesn't exist. No,
wait, what?
I know
my daughter just figured that out this year.
It was fine. How old is she? She just turned nine. Oh, last Christmas it was sort of, we were like, are we doing the same? She's like. I know who it is. I think, I think for a while they know and kind of just hang on because they think that once they reveal, they know the secret that maybe presents won't come.
They want to make you happy. True.
Something like that. Something like that. I mean, you must use, I mean, you, you created this podcast. What got you to do that?
Sexual frustration.
I was. Sexually
frustrated, not getting laid, you know, and just, I was like, I need a creative outlet. The dating websites, it's horror out there.
So I need to get the frustration out somewhere.
That was certainly not on my bingo card. So that's
why it's called Naked Truth, right? Because it's like, I get as naked as I can without taking my clothes off.
And I appreciate that. But again, you know, like what a wildly creative idea. For solving an obstacle, you know, and a lot of people would just keep banging their head on the same apps.
And I am banging in some other way, not the sexual way. See, it's all about the sex jokes, but okay. You can help me with this creative idea. I'm doing a coffee shop. Okay. I have no idea what I'm doing.
You want to do a coffee shop?
Yes. So I have the building. I have renovated it. I have a coffee machine on the way.
I make a really terrible coffee, by the way. Like if you have coffee for me, it's terrible. So my marketing But
you like coffee. I do
like coffee. I do like it. The theme is bears. Okay. I have this ginormous bear now in front of it. It's eight foot tall because I'm trying to get attention, you know, it's like, it's going to be barely legal coffee or something.
What's the vision for the coffee shop?
So I have the mental health business and a lot of people end up waiting in the lobby and then in the building people are waiting for different, you know, other businesses. The vision is like having a place for people to go and enjoy their coffee while they're waiting for somebody.
And then also just to have like a community. Uh, kind of a place where people can hang out and maybe get to know one another better because it's so hard to live in society that's just all about what's next, what's next, what's next, you know, and everybody's a number anymore. And we are not talking, we're not spending time kind of like what you're doing is, is, is creating a creative process.
That's enjoyable. It's about the results, but it's also about how you get there, the creative journey, right?
Right.
It's kind of like creating a place where people can engage in creating their lives, thinking, talking to people, drinking coffee that maybe is a little better than terrible. I guess that's the vision.
That should be, that should be the name of the coffee shop. A little better than terrible. That would be just authentic advertising. I think it's really important. I actually, I kind of like fairly legal with the B E A R. It sounds to me like you're doing a couple of things. You know, you're sort of, you know, Solving a problem that people maybe don't even know they have.
When you go to these places and they have needs met that like you didn't even realize you needed met. Like it's, it's great, right? Like it's such, it's such a great idea.
Yeah. I would want to know the people, right? Like I would want to know who's drinking my better than terrible coffee and who's enjoying it, who is not like, I would want to know who's coming over there.
You know, like I want to know these people. Maybe I'm lonely. That's another thing.
Instead of better than terrible. How about more or less bearable?
Ooh, more or less bearable. You are a creative coach, aren't you?
I have some good ideas every now and then. Sophie, write it
down. This is beautiful.
If we were taking this project as like something that we were, you know, that we were going to work on, you said it yourself, people are so focused on what's in front of them.
And oftentimes someone will come to me and say, I have this project and I can't figure out this step or I want to switch careers. I just need to figure out what that next job is. There's a class at Stanford and these guys wrote a book called Designing Your Life and it's kind of a neat book. If you want to kind of like get a process for kind of coaching yourself, it works.
I do think that all of these things work better with a coach so they can, you know, because they've worked with a lot of people and they see maybe where you're stuck, but it is a nice process. And one of the things from this book that I really, really love is kind of literally what you're talking about is this idea that there's two kinds of problems.
One is a gravity problem, and the other is called an anchor problem. They're similar, and that's why they get confused. So, like, um, gravity problem. I decide that I want to lose weight. I want to be less heavy. And if I want to be less heavy, well, why don't I just change gravity so I'm less heavy? Well, that's insane, right?
Like, we, no, like, we, you can't, like, gravity is gravity. Like, you, there's no, there's nothing you're gonna do to change that. So you have to come up with Creative ways to be less heavy. You eat differently, you exercise, you, you know, lots of, lots of different ways. An anchor problem kind of looks like a gravity problem in the mind of the person who's viewing it.
You know, they say, I really need the next job to be happy, you know, or, you know, I really need this different job, you know, to get away from this or whatever. Like the job is the thing I need to solve. Once you sort of dig into it, you might realize that That's just a solution that they've kind of latched onto.
Like, you know, they've, they've sort of sunk their anchor and said, I'm going to, I'm going to figure this out right here. I'm going to stay on these dating apps until it works or, you know, whatever it is, if you can get past that. And we, and yes, I do this in, uh, in conversation. And so not
the ankle problem.
It's not ankles. It's anchors,
anchor, anchor
is in, in the boat and boats and okay. So it's not a gravity,
gravity. You can't change an anchor. You've dropped yourself. And, and like there's a whole ocean you could swim around in, but you're like, no, I'm, I'm figuring it out here, even though you might be in the middle of a storm and it's just not the right place.
So you have to move to change perception. Exactly. Okay.
You don't get past that just by saying, well, you know, what are some other things you could do? Because oftentimes people have real fears or haven't been in the practice of imagining. The thing that I might do in a situation like that is to work past that goal.
Let's imagine. You have your coffee shop and the people are coming and they're actually, you know, this time that was just sort of like sitting, waiting, looking at their phones, maybe they're enjoying coffee and looking at their phones, or maybe they're having some conversations, you know, with the barista who's maybe you, maybe not, or you've put out games or some sort of interactivity, you know, like you want some interaction and maybe all of this is happening.
The question then is, What does that create for you? And if you want to answer, I'll let you answer. But in the case of like, you know, the job, somebody might say, well, I want to feel more relaxed. I want to feel more happy. And we go, oh, okay. So that's where you want to go. Landing the perfect job or finding the right partner, like all of those things like that could do it.
What are some other ways you could get that? So now we're not talking about getting the job. Now we're talking about getting the feeling, getting the, the impact and the results that you want to have on other people. We're talking about those things. And since, since we're now talking past the fixing this thing that's hard or not happening, we're talking about something deeper and something much more important.
So you're helping people get their creative juices flowing by having them look at everything from different angles and different perspectives, talking to them at a deeper level to get beyond. What they think they want. It's just kind of going a little deeper, trying to see what is it that you really want.
So when you get that ideal job, what else is it that you really want out of that? So maybe you want to be happy. Maybe you want to meet more people and maybe you want to make more money and you're trying to have them come up with different ideas.
I think that's right. I'll give you an example. I did a session with someone who I know who's a healthcare executive at one of the biggest healthcare companies in the country.
And she at the time. was kind of in the running for a very serious position at the company, like really kind of driving the train for the, you know, area of expertise. And she, and she, you know, she travels and she does talks and she's doing all this stuff. It was between her and one other person. You know, there's like this long process of, you know, lots, lots and lots of interviews and, and assessments and all these different things.
But there was like this one sort of final interview that was coming up. She just wanted to sort of talk through like, you know, like, you know, I'm nervous. It's a lot at stake for this interview, for her, for her family, you know, there's a lot of potential for her. And so when we talked, we did talk through some sort of logistics.
What do we, what do we expect to see in the interview? How do you want to show up in the interview? But I think the impact that really, you Can help people come from a really authentic place is when we talk about, you know, what's the impact you want to have? How do you imagine the impact on, you know, the people who are going through the healthcare system or the people at your company who are, who are coming up in your company, like, what do you think about effective leadership and really getting clear on the good intentions and the deeper impact that we want to have, it's much easier to go in with more self belief, self worth, self love and to come off in a much stronger position because you're coming from a more authentic and deeper rooted position, then please, please, please just give me this job.
That makes sense. So she landed the job after your intervention.
Well, yes, she did. I'm not taking credit for it. I mean, she did, you know, she, she's done, she's had her whole career. It was a great conversation to, to ground in that moment. You know, I, I do like working with people over time because I think it, I mean, like, as, as I imagine you also do, you know, you don't just, Stay with someone for a session and go, great, you've got the information and everything's fine forever.
No, I, I want job security. I want them to come back for more.
Look, I get it. I under, I understand it. You know, it's funny because I say that I think part of my job is to work myself out of a job. Like I, you know. I've had some clients for multiple years, and I can say that most of my clients do either renew with me or, you know, or want to come back or want to come back later.
I also think, you know, if I was waving my magic wand, I would have clients that do take time off. Let's go put all these tools into practice. Let's go break some things. Let's go out there and have some successes, have some failures, and come back with. Kind of a new round of clay that we need to sculpt. I like working with people over time because we have breaks and, you know, obviously as you do, right, you have, you don't meet every day, you have breaks in between sessions.
So we have stuff that we work on. And then two weeks later, a month later, how was it after that? Did you go out in the world and it's all better? Or did you realize that some of the tools are hard to use and let's talk, let's figure out how to do it better.
So how did you get to that very special niche?
Because it seems to me like creative coach is just something that, you know, they don't teach you in college. In fact, a lot of places now seems like everybody's boxed into what they do. And creativity is something that people are maybe almost challenged by. So it's like you created a job position or a profession for yourself, a business that is so different than other people.
So how did you arrive at it?
I'll, I'll answer the question, but I'm going to ask you a question first. You could have started a podcast and said, you know, okay, this is Alicia Matusiak. This is a, this is a therapy podcast, but you didn't. You called it the Naked Truth, a therapy podcast. Yeah. I love my little naked shirt.
That's what I do when I take my clothes off. Me too. Every time. Like, oh, it's great. Yeah. Um, but you didn't, you called it this other thing. Why did you call it the Naked Truth?
What appealed to you about that?
I see, I see. Sophie had to remind me because, uh, you know, I kind of, uh It's hard to answer questions on the spot, Mark. You're making me uncomfortable now. You're telling
me.
I'm supposed to be asking the questions, you know? Of course I have. Darn. I am tired of bullshit. I mean, that's literally what it is in life, you know There's so much red tape everywhere and bullshit everywhere and I just want to say things how they are I don't want to wrap them in a beautiful package with a pretty bow.
I'm terrible with gifts, too So I just like things the way that they are. I don't even like appetizers too much I just you know, I want to get the main course same with sex No foreplay, you know, just do it. It's like, I just want it to be genuine, authentic, funny, direct. I don't want to have people getting offended about it.
I just want to say it how it is. And so I guess that's the naked truth of it. Just, just be real.
You're not hiding, you're not hiding any, any part of yourself.
Yeah.
Yeah. It's authentic. It's real.
But maybe I am, you know, because then,
well, aren't we all, but
jokes, whatever, you know, you're always hiding some part of yourself, but I would like to see in life that people are not hiding so much and that people are connecting by being real, you know, maybe through doing therapy.
I felt always like everyone wants the same things, but they describe them differently. Essentially. We all want to be loved. We all want to create some kind of a. Pain free or a happy life. We are doing it in different ways, but we are also hiding parts of ourselves because we want to please other people or we want to appear a certain way.
Right? So I guess my sort of like this mission in life is to deconstruct bullshit and try to see people for who they are, help them. grow in better ways, help them see parts of themselves that they maybe didn't know they had because they're swimming bullshit, the ocean of bullshit, you know?
I love it.
It's, you know, the branding is very, is very clear. And it's clear from what you said. If I was someone who didn't already know your podcast, but if I was someone who was like, I need, you know, I need a therapy podcast. There's lots of therapy podcasts out there, but you're the only one I know that has this like great sort of not irreverent, but really just like straight up real.
You asked me why a creative coach. It's, in some ways, what you said. I think about this a lot, and I want to cut through some bullshit right now too, because in the world of coaching, in the world of selling anything, someone's gonna tell you at some point you need to have a niche. Use the word niche.
They're gonna say you have to have a niche. Who's your audience? Who's your avatar? You gotta, you gotta think about these things. Got it. Got it. And the truth is, you're not gonna know when you start. That's true. My experience, and, and now that I've had this, you know, it's like you buy a blue car and suddenly you see blue cars everywhere.
Now that I've had this experience and I talk to people, they're like, yeah, exactly. Like, you can't sit there and, and not, not have an ish. You can't be like, I'm a coach, hire me. Like, no, it would just be like, oh. Okay. Like, can you solve my problem? I don't know. There's, and there's lots of ways to share stories and let people know how you work and the results that you get.
And they might see themselves in those results. I didn't have that. I had other things that, that I called myself. Am I this kind of coach? Am I that kind of coach? As I worked with people and started to see where I really landed with people, it was about that creative. process. I think that coaching is a creative profession.
And I think a lot of entrepreneurs, small businesses, anybody who's like, make like what you're doing, like, this is a creative thing that you're doing. And I'm convinced because I've worked with people who are like, in kind of all, like I mentioned, like all these, you know, different things, when they access that creativity and that way of shifting, you know, what if it looked like this?
What if I looked at it from over here, they start to find solutions that can not just be more interesting, but more authentic to them. I think you probably. See this in your work too. We all have fears, whether or not we want to admit that we have fears. There's, there's things that we do or don't do because, you know, because we're, you know, afraid in, in various ways, not like, Oh my God, I'm so scared of doing that, but sort of like, I don't do that because it feels uncomfortable.
I don't want to ask for this. Cause it feels uncomfortable. I don't want to say that I'm a this because it, and it, and it did saying this is the kind of coach I am. It feels uncomfortable at times because somebody might go, Oh great. Not for me. God. Um, but at the end of the day, what do I want? I want to work with people who are willing and open to explore these creative ways of thinking to solve their problems.
Cause I think that's the, I do think that that's the best way to solve problems. I've seen, I've worked in corporate. I was the executive director of a nonprofit. I've been on teams, I've led teams. I founded a company, like I've done all these different things. I can't think of an example where the kinds of creative processes that we use to get the best ideas and the best.
thinking out of groups, teams, individuals, creative teams. These, these processes work if you're willing to be in the room.
It almost helps that you are not an expert in all of these different fields with all of these different clients that you have. You are a jack of all trades. It sounds like it's, it's so, so, you know, enough.
About the creative process that goes into it, but maybe you don't know all the specific details of the field of the client that you're working with, but that's good because you can see it through new eyes rather than be stuck sort of in that same way of doing things the same way forever.
You know, you essentially just.
Define the difference between coaching and consulting. If you know, if you want someone to come in and tell you the best way to do something, I might not, I might not be the guy. What coaches do, what I do is exactly that is we come in with kind of like the meta tools, like, okay, yes, you've got, you've got things that you want to solve.
Let's figure out kind of what the conversation is, what we're really trying to create underneath that. And what I've found is that a lot of times the answers become sometimes painfully obvious. I was working with someone who. Is just to speak sort of vaguely generally like in in the realm of politics and was sort of stuck in very particular ways with the organizations that she has started after leaving the administration, and there's nothing I could tell her.
And yet we were able to really examine. What is the life that she was trying to create with this stuff? What is it that she wanted to feel about her work getting up, you know, every day? Like, things like that and, and, and lots more things than that. It was, you know, it's not like, oh, I want to feel better.
Okay, so now I'll just do this. Through a few months of work, we really looked at those things. And it was funny, actually, it was sort of an interesting example, because you're sort of doing a few months of work. It can feel, honestly, it can feel like, where are we going with this? And then, I just, I remember this clear as day, like, it was like week five.
No, it wasn't a few months, it was week five. We had sort of set these goals, things she wanted to do, things she wanted to solve, and like, we were like, okay, we're sort of working, working, working, and then week five, She's like, something happened, like everything that we were gonna, that I wanted to do, I did it this week.
Like all of the things got checked out. She's like, now what are we going to work on? And we just got to go, you know, a level deeper. It works, it works differently with different people. You know, people say like, oh, what can I expect? What kind of results? Like, okay, these are some things that have happened for other people.
It may happen the same way. It may happen different with you. I mean, that's the hard thing about, you know, trying to put yourself out there as, as this thing, cause you can't, it's not like, you know, I'm selling a vacuum and I can give you specs and say exactly what it can do, but I can tell you like a lot of different things that it can do.
I can tell you things that it has done for, you know, other people. And I can tell you why I know that that worked. Then we have to sort of figure out what's going to work for you. One person's way of being open and vulnerable or solving problems. They might have some ideas, uh, about that. They might not, they might have some things in the way that, that don't get discovered for a week or two.
Like, you know.
So people have to be creative in how they think what results they're going to get with you, because they shouldn't just expect like, this is the specs sheet and that's what I'm going to get. It's going to be creative. It's year one of a kind, you're unique. So your results are going to be different than.
I really like the way that you, that you put that. Um, cause the first thing that we do, I mean, the first thing that I do is, you know, if you go to my website, you can, you know, you can book 20 minutes with me and I have sort of a, a series of questions that I ask. So you can feel like, okay, like, do you like talking to me?
I think that's important. If you don't like talking to me, we probably shouldn't work together. Uh, but if you do. Maybe you want to have another call where we do some really, you know, some deeper coaching. If we do, you know, work together for sort of a longer term, three months, six months, something like that at the start, I always start with that, you know, let's create.
I mean, the way that I would put it in this context is like, let's create our results. But what does that mean? It means that maybe you're coming in and you're like, I want to get a, you know, a job. We're actually going to blow that up a little bit. And we're going to look at every aspect of your life and see If there's anything in the way, is there anything that's actually going really well that you want to put more energy into?
Like, I'm working with an international artist. We've been working together for about, I want to say like six months now. And what they're telling me is that their goals have changed. And this happens all the time. Like when someone starts to actually look deeply at who they are and what they want. I think that's what holds people back from coaching because it does kind of happen a lot where people really get to know themselves.
I think people are afraid of, like, if I look too deeply, there will be a change that I kind of can't unsee, and I'll either have to do the work or be unhappy, and both of those things sound hard. What I would say in response to that is, you might, and the good news is, there are ways of approaching difficult change or, you know, big work ahead that actually makes it enjoyable and fun to be in the process.
So you're kind of like a mental health coach. You're not diagnosing, you're just helping people sort of see their life in different ways, help them figure out what it is that they truly want, and then help them navigate towards that goal.
You know, in our ethical guidelines, like it's very important that we tell people if you need therapy.
Not a therapist, not trained as a therapist. If you need therapy, that's a different thing. That said, my experience being coached and actually from, from doing coaching is that my mental health has improved. My entree into coaching was in large part, thanks to a real mental health crisis.
In
2021, it felt like the height of COVID in some ways, cause it's been going on for, And I had just left a job in really circumstances that crushed me.
I didn't get out of bed for three weeks. Like, I got out of bed, I made dinner for my family, I put it on the table, and I went upstairs. Like, I was a ghost. Um, and, uh, you know, and I had a, you know, and I had a therapist, um, That I still, that I still work with. We, I sort of go on and off with her, but when all that was going on, this is a bit of a tangent maybe, but what was really interesting about this much longer story is that my wife, who's always been very supportive of my work, always been supportive of me following, you know, whatever, you know, whatever it is I want to do and, you know, is, is good with a suggestion here and there, but really doesn't try to put her hands on, on, on the wheel, so to speak.
But this was one of the first times that, that, um, She said sort of more clearly, first of all, she's like, look, you're obviously, you know, going through this thing. It's really hard, but also it's the middle of COVID. The kids are home all the time. I really need to focus on that. And I can't be your therapist.
And also, you know, I was sort of going back into the studio at that point. And, and she said, basically, you don't have to go back to making art. And I was like, I'm really curious why you would say that. Like, obviously I would go back to me, right? Like that's what I was doing before I was the executive director at this organization.
And she said, I just don't think you were that happy.
Yep, women, you know, they know more about you guys than you know about yourselves.
She does know a lot about me. Fortunately, I've had, you know, I've, I've been in and out of the coaching world for about 20 years and I had never really gone back for any sort of formal education, but I knew enough to say, well, I'm not going to argue with this.
Let me just let it, let me just let it sit. Let me sink, let me sink into this. And through a process that I then sort of created for myself from the various coaching that I'd done and received and over the course of the next nine months, really, it took a, it took a while, I got myself to a place where I really feel like I'm doing the most creative work of my life.
And it's not, you know, it's, it's not that it was like, Oh, I just decided arts out the window. I just had to look at it from another perspective. What am I trying to create in the world? What am I trying to create for my life? Doing this work is just so creative. It really scratches that itch. It's kind of like you were saying at the beginning.
You started this podcast because you were sexually frustrated. People might be like, what are you talking about? But you explain it, and you're like, ah, that makes sense. People might say, wait a minute, you were like making paintings, and how does that scratch the same itch? But to me, it just makes sense. So much, it's, it's, it's this, it's the thinking, it's the mindset.
It's coming up with new ideas all the time. One of my problems, if you will, in my art career, one of the issues, I was so interested in doing all these different things and I did do all those different things and some things with, you know, some degree of success, my, my fine art won awards, like I was doing all of these different things with coaching.
It's awesome. Like everybody's different, you know, I'm working on different stuff. I'm, you know, with different people. Yeah. And the impact goes, you know, goes even further.
Mm hmm.
And that's what feels really good to me is like I had someone come to me and say this method You taught for sort of peer coaching I use it all the time now like I did it with my partner and I've done it with my colleagues and like it's so Great, you know and when I hear that I'm like, wow, like I made a difference like that's a I love that
That's
perfect.
Yeah, like that's what I want to make a difference
You're speaking from passion. You're passionate about it. You're helping people. You're, you're making a difference. It's a very creative process.
It's a real partnership. I'm hearing that you're not necessarily a very boring kind of mental health worker.
No. Um, and you know, it's a, it, it, it is a partnership. Like, if you're doing anything where you're doing this kind of stuff, Kind of one on one work, whether it's a therapist or coach, like if you're working with somebody and you know, they sort of come to a realization about things, something that needs to change and they don't do it and they don't do it and they don't do it.
That's not as exciting. It is true that sometimes progress is slow. That's okay. Sometimes you get stuck and that's also okay. If you're willing to sort of keep coming back to the drawing board, so to speak, and keep imagining, keep creating, first of all, just that whole process can be enjoyable and you'll eventually find Something that feels right.
I have some clients that have worked with for multiple years. And I mean, I can tell you, having been with someone in a professional relationship for that long, there are some months that go by where we're kind of in maintenance mode. There's some months where we're like, Oh wait, are we back where we were before?
And then usually there's that sort of post traumatic growth that happens where the little dip is actually the sign of a to come and you see those things over time.
Do you work with people in person or remotely fully or how does that
I do both I live in Brooklyn So I have a couple of clients who come to my office here.
Mm hmm.
Most of my clients are virtual. It's funny I've been working virtually, you know in a role like this for you know since 2011 a mentor of mine started a an art program and invited Me to help on the tech side of the program and then also to teach in the program. So I taught there for 10 to 12 years.
I forget. She started that program in 20, I think it was 2011 as a virtual program, which at the time was a little bit weird. Like I didn't know anybody else who was doing that. She did it because. You know, she ran an in person workshop that was sort of known around the world. And the thing that you kind of heard the most was, you know, it's hard and it's expensive to, to get there and to stay there for a week and all this other stuff.
So she created it to in many ways, create something that was a more accessible, be that worked over time. So there there's that again. So when COVID hit the program doubled in size, you brought on new teachers, when so many people were kind of wondering how to do deep. work with people like this, it was very, very natural to me.
The course that we ran was two semesters a year. It was 14 weeks, three hours a week. So I'd be on this thing for, cause I taught two classes. So at least six hours a week, I'm, I'm, I'm in it with people and to tie it back to the coaching, you know, one of the things that I realized when I was sort of my deep, dark exploration was that one of the things I really liked best about teaching art.
Was the other conversation that we were having like, oh, I didn't do anything this week. Okay. Well, you know what? You've got 20 minutes Maybe we can figure out what got in the way so that next week's different I mean, I think so much of the work of making art is really about having someone like that
Mm hmm
in your corner who's able to either validate your experience or offer a sounding board for new ideas or Challenge you and push you, you know all of what a coach does I was fortunate to have some of those people.
You're a creative problem solver.
Yes, certainly. But I think all of us have that capacity. Yes. If we are in a space where that's permitted, right? I run a group program specifically for creatives. It's an ongoing membership. And one of the biggest values, I think, is you're on this platform and we have regular Zoom calls, but there's also places in this platform to connect with other people, either co working or, you know, whatever.
And what I've heard over and over and over again from the people in the membership, it truly is the safest and non judgmental place they've ever been on the internet. That's what they say. Thank you. I'm really proud of that. Yeah. Good. Also, I can't take full credit for it. Like they are also co creating that space with me.
They take it, I think, just as seriously as I do. You know, one of the things that's really important is that people are committed to interacting in a way that continues to create that safety. Because that's where people can really be real, right?
Yes, and I think we're getting to the naked truth
section
of the podcast.
So my naked truth. I'll start.
Okay. I got to think about it.
I know. So my naked truth is, as I'm talking to you, for some reason, okay, and I don't know if this is true or not, this is going to be a woo woo thing. I'm getting a feeling that you're a little hurt. That something happened recently where you're just a little hurt.
There's also like a sleep something. Um, I don't know if that's true or not. But I'm also noticing you, you don't fully take credit for things that you do. And that might be just a little something that maybe you don't feel appreciated. Maybe that's what I'm picking up on. I don't know why, but. That's just something in your eyes.
You know, just something, something in your eyes.
I think you just nailed it. How did you do that? Wow.
Just talking to you. I just noticed that.
Yeah. All those things are true.
That you're a brilliant man, but there's that thing that you do. And I don't know if that comes from childhood, but just something that you do that you always like take away your own accomplishment.
It's almost like it's never quite good enough. And so you're like picking at yourself and like. Taking away slowly the accomplishment that you've accomplished. And I don't, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, maybe I'm not explaining it right, but just something about your eyes. You're
killing it.
Okay. Do you
want a response or just?
Yeah, tell me, tell me, because maybe, uh, maybe you can explain a little bit about what's going on.
I am very tired today. I was in a conversation. Last night, and then looked at the clock and went, Oh my god, it's one o'clock in the morning. And I get up seven to take my daughter to school, so. I go to Jiu Jitsu every, every morning.
And, I was really zoned out this morning. Like, feeling dizzy. Just really unusual. Um, feeling really off. I even grabbed the wrong bag this morning. Like. I went to Jiu Jitsu with my laptop and not my gear, so I had to borrow something when I got there. Like, it was a very, I was like, oh my god, I'm discombobulated.
Um, I did have a very, very hard conversation that was hurtful recently, very recently. That was on my mind this morning when I woke up. And I have a long and, uh, Rich history of doing exactly what you said, kind of not self deprecation, but there's a real fear that I have that comes from childhood of being too big, too successful.
I had a lot of successes as a kid. I did very well in school. I went to Harvard. I was the president of a bunch of, you know, groups that I was a part of. I performed on stage. I was in acapella groups, but you know, from childhood and we know, we know where that comes from. It was, you know, it was never enough.
I think my survival mechanism was basically sort of to make myself small. If I did something too big it would be a painful experience. I think that one of my parents was operating not in a neurotypical way and it was very confusing for me as a kid because on one hand I was very very driven. I was also diagnosed recently with ADHD, which I know was, was there, but you know, I was driven, I was pushed by my parents to be, you know, to be very successful, which I did and in many ways, gladly.
And yet when I did the thing that was expected or exceeded those expectations, it was often met with anger, frustration, sadness. And so it was like, okay, maybe I gotta, I gotta find that line where I'm not like failing out of school on purpose, but like, I also had to temper that.
It's almost like leaving yourself, so for the safety mechanism, I'm trying to think defense mechanism, safety mechanism was to do well, but not so well that you couldn't do better next time so that there was always that room to jump higher next time because your parents would never be fully, or the environment was never fully approving of what your accomplishment was.
Yeah,
I guess, I guess, yeah, if we're really kind of analyzing it, I guess that feels right and, you know, maybe part of it. was just kind of like, you know, to, to validate their feelings of their experience. Well, there, maybe they're overreacting, but yes, I could have done better. So, okay. Like it's not, it's not insane.
Right. So that you could also feel authentic about it. Like it wasn't a lie. They were not overreacting. You knew it within yourself then. So you kind of could live with that. Cognitive dissonance, when we see something different and feel something different. So we always try to level it off.
Yeah. I think the cognitive dissonance at various points, it was very difficult.
Like it was just very difficult. Um, I didn't understand why I'm getting this, you know, reaction from this input. I, you know, did a lot of therapy around that. Did a lot, you know, a lot of the personal growth work that I've done has been around kind of reprogramming that truth that we learn about life. As kids from our parents, when we grow up, it doesn't always fit, and not because all of our parents are wrong, but it's a wide range and spectrum of like what your experience felt like.
At the end of the day, as you go through your unique path, it's going to be a little bit different from anything that your parents said. I don't know, I mean, maybe there's some exceptions, but I would say in most cases, you're not going to have exactly the same experiences and exactly the same outcomes.
And so, you know, when you start to, you know, Maybe as early as your teens or 20s start to really have full agency over your life. It can be very confronting because sometimes the lessons don't match, don't work. Your particular corner of the world, wherever you ended up, the behavior based on the input is different.
So you've got to, you've got to sort. that out. And then you've got to make some decisions about what you actually want to do.
Your childhood, it feels like it was work. It feels to me like now you're, like, you're taking that creative time for yourself, building in a little bit of fun into your life by helping people be creative.
In many ways. There, like, there were many great things, like, you know, my, uh, you know, my parents paid for, uh, paid for my university, you know, my college education, the first one, I was in public school for some years, but I was in private school for high school, like they supported me and, um, you know, they, you know, we went, you know, we went to fun places sometimes and, you know, there was lots of things that, you know, it's not to say that it was like, you know, some sort of grim, barren, you know, place.
We lived, you know, we grew, I grew up in Boston and I had, I think, kind of a reasonable amount of freedom in my early teens and taking the train. I was, I was working actually from, from age 14, which in many ways was great because I was, you know, sort of get, had this responsibility and this agency and this freedom and, you know, money to spend, which I mostly spent renting horror movies.
But, um, yeah, So yeah, I remember like having these great summers where, you know, I'd go to work. I worked at a newsstand in Harvard Square and I'd make some crappy sound. To me, it was awesome because it's the first money I ever earned. You know, I'd go and I'd get a horror movie and I'd watch movies. So I just had the summer where I'm like out in Harvard Square and yeah, I'm working, but then I get to go watch a movie and it's just great.
And yeah, there was always sort of the threat of. Of work because one of the things that would happen is sometimes things in the house would get tense get angry And I wouldn't be aware that we were close to that right like so this unpredictability You know, it's often sort of a surprise to me and when you're in an environment like that You're kind of never not working a little bit.
Yeah
Yeah.
Okay. What is your naked truth? Oh
my God. Do I have to do this to you?
No, no. You can, you can just say anything you wish. It could be a quote. It could be something that you want the listeners to remember.
Yeah. Well, first of all, I think you're brilliant and I'm excited to share this podcast.
Thank you.
That's, that's legit. What is my naked truth? It's funny, like, when I, you know, when I work with people, I'll often kind of pull out like that kind of thing, like little, little bits and, and, and aha moments. What's coming to me right now, uh, I actually just, I, I made a, I made a, a book recently of my, um, I have it here and it's called A Feeling of Belonging and it's, it's art that I made that I haven't shared on social media and some.
poetry. I'm getting to my naked truth.
It's beautiful.
I just put that book out there and it's called A Feeling of Belonging and, and really kind of the message that is in there is that I just think that that's something that, that human beings need and, and also deserve. We live in a very complicated world and navigating it, there's always, I think, a process of kind of finding the place where you can truly be authentic.
I think it's difficult because once you start to do this work and you start to Notice that this is a thing that you want you maybe start to notice all the ways that you weren't doing it or that you're not in those spaces and I think that can be a difficult realization, but I think that fundamentally that's something that we all should have.
And if there's one thing. It's a lot of why I do what I do. I went to an all boys private school. I was hiding a lot of things. Um, like, you know, you could not be like a vulnerable. This was in the, you know, 89 to, you know, early 90s. And it was not a place where vulnerability was like a thing. I feel fortunate that I've learned this over time.
I think at the end of the day, I'm, I'm, I'm sort of processing it now and sort of thinking through like all the different kinds of people that I've worked with and also my own experience, but if we want to do kind of our great work in the world, whatever that is, and maybe that great work is just, Your family and, and, and, you know, or just, you know, do, doing, you know, living a simple life or maybe you want to, you know, go do something really big, start your own organization, change the world.
In order to do that, we have to have at least just one place in our life where we have that feeling where we can be quiet or loud or say the kind of weird thing and know that there's not going to be any judgment. And know that it's safe. And not to say that you can say some outlandish thing and someone's not going to be like, That's weird, dude.
But like, I have friends who I feel this with. And I know that they'll call me out on some BS, right? Like if I say something that's like, not cool, they're going to be like, Dude, that's not cool. And it's going to be said with love. I know it's going to be said with like, Hey, man, I'm, I'm your friend or whatever.
You know, I'm, I'm, I'm here and I'm here delivering this because I, you know, I, I care about you and I think you're awesome and maybe that was too far. But for, for most of the time, it's like all of these, you know, things we want to be and things we want to say, you got to have a space somewhere where that is just accepted at face value and, and approached with curiosity.
Our whole life, sir. It's a journey to find the feeling of belonging.
Yeah, that's what, thank you for taking my five minutes and putting in this sentence.
No, I think that's, that's, that's the, uh, basis for all therapy for everyone. I think it's the people are suffering because they don't feel like they belong someplace.
They don't have that safe place. I'm happy you're out there creating the safe space for people to open up, talk through things. Amazing. I really appreciate you.
I didn't know what to expect, but this was beautiful. Really amazing. Thank you.
So one last question. How can folks find you when they want to sign up with you for creative coaching?
You can find everything that I do, I think, on my website, which is Mark Sheff Coaching. So I know you'll post a link, it's M A R C S C H E F F coaching. com. If you're interested in the creative membership, it's called the Unleashed Creativity Club and that's at unleashedcreativity. club
Wonderful. And you said you, you just, uh, are Publishing a book or you've already published it?
There's one book that I co authored with a bunch of other expert coaches that just came out from Pixel Publishing and there's another book that is now available on Amazon that I put out there on my own of the art and transmissions from my authentic self.
Yay! Wonderful. Well, thank you so much. We'll let you go and resolve more world's problems.
And we just, I so appreciate you here today and thank you so much.
Thank you so much. This was great.
See you soon.
I'll see you soon.
Bye Mark.
Bye.
