Episode 110. Overcoming Adversity Through Narrative Therapy with Joshua Adams MSW, LSW

We dive deep into an interview with ⁠Joshua Tree Adams⁠, a mental health therapist at Holistic Wellness Solutions who utilizes a narrative approach in his practice. Joshua shares his experiences of overcoming obesity, writing a transformative self-help memoir with a cancer survivor, and finding meaning in life’s adversities. With a mix of humor and profound wisdom, Joshua discusses the importance of self-image, personal leadership, and the power of storytelling in healing.

FIND JOSHUA

⁠Joshua's Book: The Last Year of My Life⁠⁠

⁠Joshua on Psychology Today (Columbus, Ohio)

CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction and Personal Anecdotes

00:19 The Importance of Self-Image

01:55 Narrative Therapy and Writing Background

03:07 Influence of Family and The Writing Journey

03:47 Joshua's Book and Its Impact

05:03 Tools for Personal Leadership

09:03 Challenges and Personal Growth

20:43 Empathy and Potential in Adversity

21:16 Finding Meaning in Life's Challenges

21:54 Personal Leadership and Taking Risks

22:34 Divorce and Life Lessons

25:32 Turning Adversity into Advantage

25:55 Self-Reflection

31:03 The Healing Journey and Personal Growth

39:07 Stoicism and Control

42:43 The Mirror Exercise

43:41 Conclusion

I would consider it my best work, and something that would

I'm getting overheated, so I'm gonna just take one piece of clothing off.

Okay.

Let me just do it in a fun way. Ha ha ha

ha ha! Sorry, the audience over there just Yeah, the audience just

got hit with a jacket.

I let myself go ten years ago. Very unhealthy, very overweight. It's one of the hardest lessons. It's one of the really hard pills to swallow. A lot of your choices, a lot of how you handle something What cards you're dealt, like, it's up to you. You're going to live your life, or you're going to live your life.

Cause self image I think is so critical to so much. Well, there it is. It's seeing yourself as someone who can handle this. Let's choose what we actually want to believe, how we want to approach our lives, not live by these sort of automated processes, these narratives, these messages that we may have inherited it.

I don't think we learn through joy, through happiness, the by product of us going through difficulties, having those contrasts to The time in life.

So Joshua, as we're talking, I notice there's more and more gray hair in your beard.

Oh, jeez.

You wanted conflict, here it is. What

resolution is the video on? I mean, gosh,

4K?

One spiritual expression is every descent is meant for a greater ascent. Whether you're spiritual or not, you know, why don't we all just sort of make our own meaning of what we're going through. There's something I'm trying to like give back to that older version of myself, which is to take the challenge.

Something I never would have thought I would ever do.

So basically you're saying you're trying to stay hot. That's the naked truth right there. Out of all that, Joshua, I'm

summarizing. I won't quite be naked on stage if that's, that's, that's what you're thinking, but is that going to be like, uh, uh, paywalled content?

If you want it, if you want to see it, you'll have to pay for that, that, that, uh.

Welcome to the Naked Truth Podcast. We are interviewing today Joshua Tree Adams. Who is a mental health therapist using narrative approach and I am just so excited to learn about his style with clients and also learning more about the book that he published recently with another author. So we're just excited, Joshua, today.

My job's

on the line here. Right. That's right. We're going to fire him. Yeah. This podcast has to go well.

We did a podcast interview with Danny Mazur and he, uh, started a storytelling business basically, an agency where they talk to a lot of people and it's healing through storytelling. Yes. So I was just thinking about how that is perfect for your approach as well.

That's it. That's it. So I think there's kind of a broad range of considerations for narrative therapy. I think I've found it show up. Blending my writing background, my editorial background with editing, having eventually, you know, gone through school to get a social worker degree. I think that I found the two to have such a synergy together.

And so.

Do you have a writing background?

Yes. Absolutely. Origin story. I remember, well, my mother is certainly someone to reference. I call her my Yoda. A lot of my sort of spiritual kind of foundation comes from her. And I've learned a great deal from her. Also, she's a published author. She has a bestseller.

What's her name? Her name's Deborah Herman. So.

And we need to read her books as well, huh? What does she write about?

She's actually really a true crime enthusiast and someone who, as of late, really has become respected in that community. She has a journalist background and she's been leveraging that to interview and she's done, in fact, actually what, effectively, I had done for her.

It's my book here with Iki Elner. And so it's Iki Elner's story of surviving stage four lung cancer after four doctors told him he had six months to live.

Wow.

He decided to pursue a fifth that was going to co sign his fight for his life. It's a prescriptive memoir. So

what does that mean, Joshua? Because I don't know what that means.

Good question. It's self help blended through memoir. So it has nothing to do with prescriptions. It's self help. No, no, but I mean, it's But you prescribed me

something by making me want to read a memoir.

Yes, there's a process in here. Okay. So, part of the title is the 10 Tools that Transformed Daily Diagnosis into Path Renewal.

Fancy schmancy, but these 10 tools were the culmination of a lot of work between him and I, deriving these from different lessons moments in his fight against cancer. There's more to it beyond that because of course, if that wasn't enough, he loses both his parents soon after that battle, that struggle, and also his ability to walk for a year.

So I think true to life, you know, it's all, it's always something, right? That's the class's half empty perspective. That's what we always say every day. It's always

something. Yeah, we'll reframe

that a bit. But, And I think that he really realized that there was an attitude, an approach, a mentality toward life.

I like to call these guiding perspectives.

I

share this term with a lot of my clients. And so you have this guiding perspective that sort of sets the mentality of how to address something, the why. Why do these things to make my life better? What kind of perspective? I think we know all the time, especially when the bread and butter of therapy is a perspective shift on something, right?

So.

You mean we don't fix anything in therapy, we just help change perspective?

Yeah, it's just, uh, wordplay and semantics and we're all feeling better about what's going on about ourselves. So. I think that I see that. With the mental tools that we put together, we wanted it to be practical. So prescriptive memoir, sure, through his story, it may inspire.

I would consider it my best work. And something that would

I'm getting overheated, so I'm gonna just take one piece of clothing.

Okay.

Okay, let me just do it in a fun way. Okay, now we're good. We're good.

Sorry, the

audience over

there just Yeah, the audience just

got hit with a jacket.

Yeah, so the tools are something, we wanted to have something practical.

When you read a book, I don't remember everything I read. I don't remember every word. Sometimes I forget a whole chapter. Sometimes

I forget my own life.

Who am I? Right. Who am I?

What am I doing here? What

am I doing here? Yeah. Yeah, it's just It's having something that they can refer back to apply. We wanted to build that in and I think we, we were learning a lot through the writing, the making of the story.

Cause we started from scratch. We had an idea to write a book. It originally was, okay, he's, he survived cancer. Okay. There's a book, right? There's a lot of books on that. My mother comes into the picture because she's the publisher. And so it's an indie publishing house. I've done a lot of work for that.

Again, there's that editorial experience, working people from different backgrounds, fiction and nonfiction. I've treasured those experiences. I've learned a lot through them. And there's a lot of overlap with that work and therapy clients. I've learned a lot from her. And the fact is, she does that too. So she's co authored, ghost written, and written her own books.

One of the Idiot's Guides, by the way, to motherhood. Interesting.

Awesome! Yes.

And there's probably a couple stories about me in there. And I'm not, I'm not name dropped, but Were you a

difficult child, Joshua? Come on.

I was, uh Was she

calling you, like, by the big, like, Joshua Tree Adams, get over here!

That was, yeah, that was one of them.

But I was, uh, uh, I think my, my older sister took the brunt of the, uh, I was the middle child of two Tauruses. So you were trying to

please everybody? I'm the Libra.

I'm the scales, I'm the balancer of things. And so I got, I got away with stuff. I was, I was, I was a good kid. I was a good, you know, but.

We'll have to contact your mother for that.

Yeah, you'll have to. And do an interview with her to find out.

She might have some other things to say. But nonetheless, uh, great inspiration of mine. And so, certainly learned a lot from her. And, and, uh. You know, really, I think about it in this very moment. She did that. That was awesome. Writing a book for someone who went through a harrowing experience.

She wrote a book on one of the stories of Charles Manson. And so, the individual was one of the girls that did not actually participate in the murders. So, they're very close. And, I think there's a lot of spirituality in that, in terms of healing.

So you had a lot of wonderful influence from your mom, a lot of depth of experience editing, and kind of learning how to make it practical for the readers as well.

That was something that, in all honesty, I would say this, is that this was a venture that is the first time I've attempted it. There was sure a lot of editorial experience, learning the ins and outs, understanding conventions, uh, you know, how a good book should be structured, uh, but this was my first stake in writing, and then, and through the entirety of it, a book, interviewing someone who is fluid in English, but it's not his, his first language.

Uh

huh.

And you're getting in the head of someone, he is, it's first person, he is the character. It's a crazy thing to do and we joke about it, I mean like, uh, I think I lost a bit of my mind going into his mind. And so, we have such a rapport, it's not something that would work with everyone. We have to build a dynamic, build a rapport at first, just as a therapist and a client should in their, in their sessions.

So he doesn't live here?

He does not, he lives in Israel. He travels here a few times a year, does workshops, trains leadership, but over there it's a different culture, it's a different situation. You know, they're faced with existential threat every day of their lives. It's woven in there. When Sderot, one of the cities in the southern part of Israel, was under attack, rockets are being barraged on there.

That was a reality they were used to. Okay, so he decides, I'm going to move down there. I'm going to establish this, this, this place that's going to raise people that are going to want to help community and build it versus fleeing and, you know, and leaving. He's been 10 years there. And so eventually the book ends sort of where he ends up moving away and feeling, you know, a sense of accomplishment about that.

But it's just to say that, you know, that's a huge part of what he's done. He's someone who's quite an activist and really it's one of the most generous, quirky characters I've met. Someone that I've learned a great deal from. I have a great deal of gratitude for. And, you know, through this book, interestingly, there's a moment I want to really share is that writing this, this Talking about, you know, kind of, uh, creating these analogies, these tools that we're gonna borrow from things that we've both hashed out and talked about, like, how do you overcome adversity?

Matching that to his experiences fighting cancer and all the other challenges wrapped within, at one point I said, Iki, I, I think I'm living the book. Certainly in the three years, the culmination of three years of publishing it, I realized that I was going through my own, really, spiritual battle. There's a lot that I've learned through him, but also through writing the book.

You know, going back to some conversation about narrative therapy, healing through stories. This is something that I see as a part of my daily work with clients and the act of writing, I love to, when a client comes to me and they pull out a journal and they're taking notes, I'm like, awesome. Like, I, I get a real, I'm like, that's cool.

Whatever. It's almost like hide my enthusiasm sometimes cause I'm like, almost become a nerd about it. So I'm really passionate about that. I think that it's certainly one of the most effective mediums for processing, getting out of your head. And writing the book allowed me to do a lot of my own processing.

I'm trying to create perspectives, tools, and just like we, we write in the book, one of the things is that he has this long history of leadership, training it, and we brand it specifically personal leadership because taking leadership over your own life, taking control over it, it's something that comes first.

Where then you're able to share those lessons with others. One of the tools is a lighthouse. It's the ninth one.

I was going to ask because there's so many tools I see. Yeah. The uniform, the library, the fortress rope. And you said the lighthouse is ninth and then you have the mirror. So what's the lighthouse?

Let's start there.

Symbolically, as you can imagine, it's certainly serving as like a light for not only yourself, but others. Shine like a sun, but become like a moon. What does that mean? It's like, that sounds a little poetic, I guess. But for us to really take personal leadership, we want to have a positive perspective.

Shine like a sun. How we approach our challenges, I think, makes the difference. There's this duality to it, because I think when we think leadership, it's like, alright, we're leading others, we're taking over. There's a sharing of that when we allow others also to exemplify, to demonstrate their leadership.

There's a giving and receiving. There's a reciprocity there that's really important. When you look at his fitness endeavors, his goals that he set, he's sharing that success with others. As he shows up to his challenges, With gusto, with positivity, with determination. Whether it's chosen challenges or ones that we're going through crisis or something, how we show up to it, I think, does project to others how they may join in, how they may help.

How you present yourself, it can be Inspiring a guiding force for others, you know, in fighting cancer, he was very much there to help and support others the same and still, still so. There's this duality to it. So when we become like a moon, we're reflecting other people's leadership, we're recognizing people's unique strengths and allowing them to be themselves, show up, you know, however they may.

Again, we have to, I think, respect that some people like we have to, you know, look boundaries. Some people are, we got to keep them out. It's a part of it. That's one of the earlier tools. So as you can see, they, they, they build on each other, but what's the uniform tool? That's a good one to pick out. Maybe it's your intuition here.

The first one though is take the reins. Yeah, it's a matter of just making a choice. You're going to fight this or you're going to submit, right? Okay. Once you do that, the second part is taking accountability over your life. It's one of the hardest lessons. It's one of the, kind of one of those, uh, really hard pills to swallow.

Talk about prescriptions earlier, right? It's one of those hard pills to swallow, which a lot of your choices, a lot of how you handle something, what cards you're dealt, like, it's up to you. The best help you can get is your will to get help. So you gotta be willing, you gotta be willing to do the work, willing to, I mean, same with working out.

That's a thing I want to reference later. But not to go on a tangent, become too tangential.

Squirrels everywhere!

Yeah, there's squirrels everywhere.

So, the uniform.

Yes, thank you. The uniform. It's taking accountability of your life. It's presenting your leadership to others. That's, again, how you're showing up to your challenges.

Well, there it is. It's seeing yourself as someone who can handle this. Because self image I think is so critical to so much. I see it all the time. Someone's self image ends up creating a reflection as they see all the challenges, the people that they're running into. Stop making people mirrors as you're going out there.

Like your self image I think drives so much of how you feel, how you're going to interact with your environment. Your uniform is something that I think you can develop. And I think that it's also thinking about the inner monologue that most people have, however it shows up in different shapes and forms.

When you're wearing a uniform, you know, it's getting ready for work, getting ready to. get out there and lead your life, you know, if you're shambling out the door, you know, kind of in your, your pajamas, eventually that'll come full circle. Because if someone is seeing you show up to life things, uh, with, you know, at least some sort of level of optimism, strength, also solutions oriented to willing to do the work, willing to take on the help, get help or whatever, you're going to end up being able to positively influence others.

Because one thing I subtly work into. is just trying to give back. So I, I love to see everyone just feel fulfilled, whatever their destinies are, self determination. When I see a lot of people start to really come into their own power to heal, to succeed, to feel stabilized, their stories, I mean, they're just, I feel I'm, I'm just inspired.

I see each client as a book and all of a sudden it's far along this book. I've seen someone who can really give back, you know, and how does that look? There's so many different ways. It's just being your best self, being positive, and that's where it's coming from, that lighthouse. There's definitely already a number of people I've worked with that crossed my mind.

Confidential, I can't tell you who they are, but a number of people that have passed through my mind right now that I'm like, wow, like, what they've been able to overcome, like, that I've been privileged to witness in their story. They have a lot of influence that if they use for good to, to really, you know, even in the small scales, like you don't have to be a celebrity or anything to do any of that.

These tools speak to a lifestyle that there's a lot of room for you to apply, to fill yourself into it. That's kind of how I saw it for myself because it's a story that I certainly felt a part of, you know, a journey, Ikki. Again, being someone who I deeply respect, he's a mentor to me. We're, we're working on our next ventures together, but.

So more books on the way.

You know, I, it's, it's, uh, the whole thing about workshops, my gosh, public speaking, that sort of thing. You asked me five, 10 years ago, if, you know, Oh, would, would you do this sort of stuff? I think, uh, uh, panic attack, maybe, I, you know, uh, similarly to other things that I But now you

read the book, and now you're all healed.

I'm a lot better than I was, and I think that I could say, I could truly say that, you know, through the book, around the time that it ended, there's a lot of things that, it was like living each chapter, the lessons there, and the teachings. tools, I felt like I was living it. Maybe that was my own just sort of projection and then it's just kind of feedback.

So you know, I'm a spiritual person, but there is probably some sort of, you know, science to it or whatever. But nonetheless, you know, absolutely. I think it really, this is, this is an important thing, the path of renewal, the transformed a deadly diagnosis. Maybe we all have that sort of situation, a limiting perspective, something that just sort of is like, all right, are you going to live your life or are you going to live your life?

Like, are we just surviving here? Are we gonna live it? And that survivalist mentality amongst many others, toxic mentalities, limiting mentalities, I think, are things that we have to break. And wearing a uniform and going through all the, you know, various tools, I think it's really trying to, you know, break out of that mentality.

Let's choose what we actually want to believe, how we want to approach our lives, not live by these sort of automated processes, these narratives, these messages that we may have inherited it. If you think about yourself as a character, main character energy, you know, that's like a thing nowadays. It's not, it's not, it's not quite like that.

I don't encourage that, but I will say people are the protagonists of their own lives. If that's the case, all right, you have, uh, you know, what makes a good story? Conflict. Conflicts, I think is the only thing that's gonna grow someone. I don't think we learn through joy, through happiness. The byproduct of us going through difficulties having those contrasts to have a, a good time in life.

No, I don't want any conflicts. No,

no, no, no,

no, no, no, no. Well,

it can't be helped, I think. But there's healthy conflicts. This, but

before you leave today, I will scream at you. We'll get into a conflict and we'll grow.

Is that gonna be like, uh, uh, paywall content? Mm-Hmm. . If you want, if you wanna see it, you'll you to pay for that, that.

So, Joshua, as we're talking, I noticed there's more and more gray hair in your beard.

Oh, jeez.

I, you wanted conflict, here it is. What

resolution is the video on, I mean, gosh, 4K,

jeez. I have like five, just for this interview. I was telling you, I was. You're stressing me out.

I was getting my son out of his car seat and he says, what's that white in your beard?

I promise you it happened this morning. I promise you. I was, I'm getting old, son. That's all I said. I think that all in all, just it's, it's a book that. I've lived the process. I'm between the lines, and I know that, you know, really, you know, through Ikki's story, I, there's so much that I've learned from him, and I, I think that, in a way, like, in some ways, in some ways, I see that, you know, how auspicious it was that we met, we went through all this, and in some ways, I see he helped me.

It

was a

little like, uh, synchronicity meeting, like, you guys just, how did you guys meet? It was Kismet. Yes.

So we met, We were introduced by my mother and him because they had talked, she, you know, did a little intake kind of looking at what he wanted to do. As it turns out, I've learned after already working with him for a few months that he's close with my uncle, he knows someone else I know.

I'm like, why don't I know you yet? It's just to say that there's, there's, you know, people in your life and I just want to give my, you know, my, my recognition that in, in some ways he helped me save my own life, truly. I say that in a spiritual sense. I really do. And so, uh, it's something that I think a lot of people kind of come to these turning points.

I see people there, when I'm working with them, and there's a lot of empathy. There's a lot that I, I see. Some, I wouldn't be able to do better than they are in their shoes. I say that to them. I really believe it. But I, I can appreciate what potential even these dark, harrowing, difficult circumstances they're in can transform them into.

And so this path to renewal, it's just renewing oneself, one's attitude toward life and try to make the most of it. We don't know how much time we have here. And so, I think, in all honesty, it's to see everything with some purpose, some meaning, whether you're spiritual or not, you know, why don't we all just sort of make our own meaning of what we're going through.

Because without that, I see that's where hopelessness really gets in. Doubt, hopelessness, that's where it's able to really inject itself like a virus and just sort of, you know, ravage your life.

The highlights of depression are hopelessness. Absolutely. So, someone with no hope, so you're right. I mean, if we could all learn how to make meaning out of the things that happen to us, whether they're terrible or awesome.

Of course. And there's a message of hope in the book, and it does speak to the idea that we also don't want to solely rely on it.

That

I think when we talk about personal leadership, it really is taking the steps, taking the actions, the uncomfortable ones. Certainly some might seem like risks. We can hope that our efforts work out or pan out, but I think some people would, you know, buy into this.

I certainly do, that somehow, some way, everything works its way out in the end. We may not be able to make sense of things until years later. Certain connections, it happens all the time. People that are, that are like, you know, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s that I've worked with, that will go back and point out something Ah, I see.

Didn't make

sense at the time when it was happening. Sure. And it

does. And I think it's frustrating when we don't have that on our own time. Divorce

doesn't make sense to me, especially when you, you know, you, two people meet and you fall in love and there's all this good stuff that happens, right? And then eventually something happens where divorce happens, like it happened to me.

You know, and for a long time, it just made no sense. It still doesn't make sense because I'm one of these people that I, if once I'm married, I want to stay married, you know, but it doesn't happen like that. Things end. And

I think that one thing, and Iki spoke to this, and we had, we've, we had a lot of philosophical conversations about these sort of things, like life, this and that, and we talk about a business failing, we try to make it where people can, you know, put in, fill in the blank with what they might be going through.

Like, they want to see themselves in this book, yeah, it's Iki's story, but he wants people to see. a reflection of selves in it, take something from it, you know, put yourself in there. And so I think in that scenario though, like, you know, you don't, you know, you're, as you're getting married, do you plan, are you planning on getting divorced eventually?

I mean, not to say that, look, there's exceptions to everything. Maybe some what is for some reason, they say for

therapy, you know, the first session you have with a client, you're also planning for the last session because everything, each beginning has some kind of an end. in it, because everything eventually ends, right, so we need to plan for these things.

But when you're getting married, you're surely not planning to be getting divorced, you know?

I would say this, I would say this, that there's sort of a idealistic perspective, you know, and I think that some people find that the older they get, the more cynical they get. Realism. Ah, life's a little too raw and real.

But what I realize is that, you know, one of my perspectives that I think I developed is that, you know, certainly I was more of a idealist, maybe a hopeless romantic once upon a time.

In your 20s. Now you're in your

fifties. Maybe even, you know, earlier, but Fifties, you said? I'm not that old. These white hairs are

It's misleading, Josh.

Some days I feel that way. Yeah, this beard is misleading, I suppose. I think that when we look at what is our life purpose, is it to get married, is it to, you know, be with this person? I think a lot of people put on a pedestal, they don't realize there's this hierarchy of what they're seeing in their lives is important.

Some people have a self awareness to see that and be aware of it. They don't want to accept it even still, I suppose. But one of the shifts is that if you realize you have your own personal path, You can neglect it, you can kind of wander from it. I think some people can't help but realize that the circumstances we can't control, we keep, we kind of get pushed back to certain core lessons in life that we are intended to learn.

And I think that the way it happens is just the packaging. You know. 100

percent agreed. I think the, the purpose is to learn. That's literally what it is. And whether that's through marriage, through divorce, or through both, or through being single, or through, you know, I mean, it's, it's like at the end of the day, there's so much learning that we're doing every day.

Absolutely. One of the expressions that's in the book and I try to live by is turning adversity into advantage. I think we're always growing. I think when people look at life as pass or fail, it's damaging when you see yourself as damaged. broken. I hate that word. I hate that. You know, I put that in my, uh, my profile advertising that, you know, we're not broken.

We're just, we're growing. We're learning through life. If we're constant learners of life and we're curious and we're willing to look at what I'm going through now, we don't have to do it in retrospect. The third tool is the library. So we use thinking about that. You go back and do some reflection. And I say, don't borrow a book too long, get some late fees.

You know, if you're spending too long ruminating. But the point is, is that I think that even in the moment, you might ask yourself, like, what can I get out of this? But what are, what are the things that are showing up right now that I'm being tested, challenged, even if it's some of the most, uh, just terrible things in, like, let's not pretend you could spend weeks just, you know, in a, you know, catastrophizing, whatever, like, it's, it's, it's not easy, but.

You get around to ask yourself those questions. You step back, have some introspection and say, Alright, if this is happening, I have no control. What can I learn from it? Because I want to walk out of here out ahead. Because some of the things we might see as sort of more superficial, whatever. You know, like if it's a divorce, you're losing a lot of stuff.

Whether it's, you know, material, whatever. There's got to be some kind of lesson that will serve you. That personal growth, how much you prize it as a possession, as a precious possession. www. larryweaver. com That's the stuff that could serve you in the future and may end up, you know, beholding, you know, greater blessings.

One spiritual expression is every descent is meant for a greater ascent. So a lot of it is, there's a guiding perspective. It can be hard to really see that sometimes as you're going through stuff.

Well, it's hard to believe in love. I think that's, that's the biggest thing, you know, when you go through divorce.

So, um, memes on Facebook, This is me getting ready to believe in love again. It's, uh, clown shoes, putting it on, you know, like, Hey, you know, so I'm trying, I'm trying to not be as cynical as I was. And it's going to transform and you're going to feel differently about it.

I think that I, I joke with some clients about avoiding toxic positivity because I think there's a necessary period of time to be angry and to be cynical.

I think that it serves a purpose, easily becomes a bit of a toxin. When we are really paying attention to what we were learning from, you know, through dating or the partners that we've had, I use that word intentionally, partners, we can partner in each other's paths. And I think that when, again, you are paying attention to your purpose, your path.

It's easier to tell if someone is meant to walk that together with you, while they also have their own. When people lose sight of themselves, their lessons, those core lessons they need to learn, and they stray from their path, things might go a little awry. And so I think just trying to remain centered.

And also I see a lot of people avoiding Good communication, a lot of lack of self awareness. It's so hard, especially

with dating. It's like, Oh my gosh, I'm a counselor. It's so hard because it's like, you're trying to figure out, well, that's, is this person really like interested? How much do I communicate?

Because I can definitely communicate, but do I communicate or do I withdraw because I don't want to overwhelm? So I don't know. That's why it's almost easier when you really think about it. It's so really easy to be by yourself. No expectations, you know what you need, you know what you want, you go do whatever you need.

Nobody's limiting you. It's like, I don't, I don't really want to do all that either.

I think that an expression that pops in my head is the, uh, cobbler's kids have no shoes. Just to say that there's been times where I realized, why am I falling in till? behavior patterns. I talk about this with people, I'm helping, there's a disconnect there.

But I realize, like, we all have our own personal quirks and things to refine. It goes back all again to just being aware of those things and always challenging them. Ah. Wait a minute. Counterpoint.

I have no quarks, I am perfect, and that's it. The evil laugh of me taking over the world.

Well, you know, it's, and you know what?

But never lose your sense of humor, right? That's another thing to it. I've had my fair share of cynicism. I've also been through my own sort of traumas. I mean, people, you know, go into therapy to, they typically have their own things that they went through. And I certainly, uh, I remember I was like, God, this is another one of those things you're putting me through that's going to like be like for helping people.

This

podcast is something God's putting you through right now. It is.

Oh, gosh. Yeah. We need to challenge

you some more.

Should have seen me prior to. The red record thing going on.

Yeah, we had to put

a uniform on you. And

your panic attack, right? One thing that's really important to emphasize, and I'm binding all these sort of sticks here together, these, these messages is that, through relationships, I find people learn the most.

Being alone, sure. In contrast, it's sort of yin and yang. Then being in a relationship, people are put through a lot of stuff where they are faced with some of the, Deep, deepest sort of, uh, issues of themselves that are opportunities for growth. And I think that, again, whatever guiding perspective you have in relationships I think can serve their success.

A lot of people have trouble saying no and cutting someone out. And I think that, you know, maybe we all feel like we have that agency and never lose it. I think we really do have choice power in all this, it's just that we relinquish that power. I think on the other side of it, that healing journey, healing journey, another key word in the book, in my own life, for a lot of people, there's a path that someone goes on to leave something behind in order to get somewhere better.

Or they're trying to get somewhere better, but they gotta leave something behind in order to get there. Maybe the past comes and tries to catch up to you, chase you, whatever, but when someone faces what they've been struggling with, their traumas, their troubles, they look in the eye, and they're not afraid.

They're okay looking themselves in the eye, you know, if it's at their soul, whatever, and they really feel like, I wanna, you know, be better, I wanna grow in relationships, whatever, there's good, there's bad. Ultimately is for the good, you might say.

It's like the manure of life.

Yes, that's what a good analogy.

Speaking of which, narrative therapy like analogies, uh, that's, you know, some, some of my clients are like, they see me as a sort of, you know, nerd for them.

So divorce is the manure we need for a better garden. So what's your naked truth?

My naked truth? I used to be, I, I, I let myself go 10 years ago. There's a whole journey I've taken for over the past 10 years to, you know, build my body to refine it through health, it's inside and out through the pursuit of discipline, breaking those mental boundaries.

When you're pushing yourself to, you know, to grow your body, to heal it, to make it do what you want. Because the way we train our bodies is we're training it to do that thing. It'll adapt. It'll grow and serve that purpose. One person that very near and dear in my life now. has inspired me to really consider, you know, going into a competition, something I never really thought about.

Cause I, I, in all honesty, didn't really think that I could see myself in that context. I used to be a very insecure person, you know, at some point, you know, through very deep personal work, through a lot of the stuff related to the book, working through a lot of those insecurities, I started to see that I already made a lot of progress.

Why am I not recognizing this? And not just in the physical sense, but I will say that to really consider it, and I have this commitment now to at least compete once, it's quite something, you know, and to go through the transformation I did, very unhealthy, very overweight, like I felt like I owe you something.

You know, I like to say this to some people that, you know, they look back at these older versions of themselves, like with kind of just negativity and shame, like this weaker person, whatever, and I said, that's the very person that got you here today. There's something I'm trying to like give back to that older version of myself, which is to take the challenge, something I never would have thought to get into a bodybuilding competition.

It's something I really am considering. It's an experiment. Just as I learned so much through writing a book, the story of it, the journey, journey, keyword again, there is a fitness journey I've taken over the past 10 years. I was starting to kind of spin my wheels. Like, what's the goal now? I feel really good about being in my own body and all the mental discipline.

It's like the gym is my temple. It sounds, however, But it became that way and someone said, Oh, you must be, what's, what's your programming? How do you do it? I'm like, Oh, it's called, it's called the stress program. I come here when I'm stressed. Seriously, I was laughing at that. I really thought about it.

I've made meaning in it. I think that there's, I think a lot of, you know, spiritual occurrences around it, opportunities, just the right time. What a thing to start envisioning. And the fact that I'm even entertaining the idea is a form of healing and of itself.

So basically you're saying you're trying to stay hot.

That's the naked truth right there. Out of all that, Joshua. I'm summarizing.

Well, you know, I won't. Hot

and healthy and the gym is your temple.

I won't

quite be naked on stage if that's, that's what you're thinking, but I will say this, coming from someone who used to be so insecure that going swimming was maybe a panic attack waiting to happen, it can, it can be done.

And it takes a lot of self love, it takes a lot of discipline, a lot of effort, and it's something that has to be a part of your life and seen as something as important as just, you know, as eating. You gotta be hungry for it. And I think that there's another side to it, diet, and there's so much that we can improve there.

A lot of this speaks to things I intend to help people more, maybe, I don't know if, yeah, I hope to specialize in wellness health because it's, I think, so much a part of someone's mental health, their well being. I, I think that so much is circumstantial, holistically,

might

we look at a lot of this stuff and say that these areas get neglected quite often.

And so, I, I want to walk the talk just as Iki did and he showed me so much. I want to walk the talk. I want to be able to say and give a full endorsement for things because they work. They work. That book, the process in it works. It saved my life. I really do it from a spiritual death of sorts, making some difficult decisions.

You know, there's again, given challenges. We didn't ask for these, but all right, what are we going to make of them? The chosen challenges, like taking on, you know, trying to compete, something you never think you would do before, something that's out of your comfort zone, and it's going to be inconvenient.

You're going to have to work for it. Even when it doesn't seem like you have the time, and it's scary, and okay, you know, testing the waters, whatever. You got to just, you got to do it. You got to give yourself that. You see this phenomenon happening all the time. Retirement, people come in, what do I do with myself?

Doesn't matter that someone gets, you know, unemployed. Somebody has the luxury just kind of, you know, meander a bit. That's it. Whatever their circumstances, it's just to say that they're not really serving a purpose that matters to them, their personal path. I think everyone has their own. Uh, I say coauthor, I'm a coauthor to this book.

I would say that, you know, whether you believe in a higher power, God, I believe in God. I think that it's just circumstance or some whatever. We can be coauthors to even circumstances. To our

own life.

To our own lives, absolutely. Take control of what you can.

Maybe God's the main author. We're just co authors.

I think that through writing this book, I realized I'm a man of God. I had to grow up. God would want to see me act as an adult, make my own decisions, have some autonomy, just like myself to my son when I see how I want him to grow and what I want him to inspire me. May he, may he outshine me in all ways.

So.

So I'm gonna tell you my naked truth.

Okay, please. Let me, let me brace myself.

And I was gonna say, uh, Shine bright like a diamond. That's what

no diamond is the same by the way There

you go, and it takes a lot of work to make a diamond and it takes a lot of stress and tension, right? So we're all diamonds some of us still, but life is going to make us into diamonds. So by the time that we exit this life, we'll be all diamonds.

As long as we are putting in that effort, you know, refining the four C's of a, of a diamond, right?

But I, it's an analogy I love. I think it's one that, uh, maybe it's even referenced in there, but what you're saying is true and not anyone is the same. And it's, I don't think it's meant to be again, personal journey. We're all meant to have our own sort of cut, right? The way that we see ourselves, how we wish.

I think giving that, you know, loving attention to our past, a refinement, and refinement's a key word. That is inherent in all the things I'm saying. Self refinement. Choosing how you want to refine yourself based on the areas that you see as maybe areas that needed growth, weaknesses, just branding, whatever you want to call it, but I would say that once we reach that point of refinement, we become prismatic and we in fact can attract others attention to ourselves that can be served for a positive purpose.

To extend that to others, help others, you know, kind of help them kind of, you know, stand up for themselves.

I also noticed that there's that sort of like a balance. It seems like, you know, there's that kind of like a, like you're guys telling us to take control, to step into our power, to take control. But you're also asking us to trust and to let go.

So it's that, you know, like that journey of trusting but then also taking control of things and making things happen and being the author of your own life rather than just letting life happen to you and being a victim. in your life, right? So it's kind of like that, that journey that, that I feel like you guys are describing here and giving people tools for that.

Absolutely. I think I'm a huge proponent of stoicism. It's not just like these, uh, you know, old white men and this philosophy they developed. I think that it's something that people should use as a utility that can serve the purpose of, you know, Finding out what can you control.

Be the lighthouse. That's immediately the, the, the thing that came to my mind.

Stoicism, you know, just like the lighthouse, you're there, but you're shining that light to others, but then also being that kind of like a safety, like a comfort for everyone in yourself.

Right. There's a lot in between, uh, you know, in the middle section of the book, you know, you look at stuff like the fortress.

Uh, you know, that is sort of having the mental fortitude to, you know, wall out negativity, doubts, despair. Those are two of these like dynamic duo. There certainly are things that we can control that we cannot. And I think when we are trying to analyze things, be calm, collected, you know, even almost like a scientist, look at some stuff and say, what about this?

Can I control what, can I not control? One thing I want to say, this is more of a spiritual perspective, and I think it all blends together with, you know, stoicism, etc, etc, and different things. Sometimes, if you think about it, the intricacies of how life works, other people's paths, again, they, if they're parallel, sometimes maybe they intertwine or whatever, and we find tension between something happening or not happening, especially on our time, they say God's time, it's a concept.

Think about it, you know, me believing in God, Uh, the amount, the, the awe of the ability to create such intricacies, such as the galaxy, the universe, how profound and vast it is, we can't comprehend. Same as all these little things that happen on a day to day basis, the timing, people's personal journeys being prioritized all the same, weaving together.

And when we've crossed someone's path, you look sometimes at like, wow, it was just one day later, just one moment earlier, that one thing didn't happen or whatever.

None of these other things would happen, right?

Absolutely. But sometimes we get frustrated with that. Sometimes we get frustrated that something's not happening yet.

I have to accept that I will not know the answer to this, but over here I can control that. I can focus on that. That is meaningful.

How do we find the book? Because I think everybody's going to want to read it now. How do we, where do we find it?

Yes, it's on Amazon. That's where I've been driving traffic to.

Uh, reviews are deeply appreciated. And it's just something that speaks to an honest refuse, honest refuse, right? Uh, just something you might have learned from it, uh, you know, a page out of the book that you're like, ah, that one or something really resonated. I think when I was writing this, it's like, you know, of course, someone writes a book.

What a, you know, crazy endeavor. I just remember how gratifying it would be to share it with people I care for, and that they read it. That right there was one of the most, uh, my heart warms thinking about that. And it's just simply to see, to hear. People that are affected by the book positively. That's all I, I think I'm really getting out of it.

I don't sort of see this book as something that'll find profound success and certainly maybe not anytime soon, whatever if it did. One can hope. You know what, God's help. But my point is the success to me really is that. People are getting something out of it. I think it's a well written book. I spent, sacrificed a lot of my, you know, blood, sweat, and tears for writing it.

A lot of me is in it. A lot of also my lessons as things I learned from Ikki, you know, being under his tutelage, having the privilege of being able to also be responsible for telling his story. One that respects him, his values, his perspectives. Learning through his story, someone who had faced some of the most, you know, harrowing circumstances.

You know, the Grim Reaper, you know, himself, but also himself in the mirror. The last tool, you know, is the mirror. And it actually is to suggest that everything that we need is already inside ourselves. This last one suggests someone standing in front of a mirror. And there's a mental exercise that it's, that it's walked through.

So people have trouble looking at themselves in the eyes, actually. I find that interesting, and certainly it was for me. When I

look into my own eyes, I just want to make out with myself. So I try avoiding it, too. Well,

some people have no trouble with that. But there's a way of looking not at someone's eyes, but into.

Oh.

Into their eyes. And this is into the space of vulnerability, the place of who I am. You know, and that it's also to see that this is not a perfect person.

Except with me, I'm perfect. So this is the family trait. My father is perfect. He told me so. I believe him. We call him the pearl. Apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

So I told my father I'm perfect too.

Maybe we should get you in front of the mirror first then.

Joshua, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming and sharing stories about this wonderful book with our listeners.

Of course. Thank you for having me.

Thank you for teaching us all the wisdoms.

My pleasure.

Thank you.